Lowgarden

An ASOIAF / GOT blog, complete with (tagged) spoilers for both books and show.
I suspect some will argue GRRM himself is clueless about consent and rape issues, but I never saw the book scene as rape, mostly because Cersei doesn’t react as an angry rape victim would. Quite different from her reaction to Robert raping her.

Yeah, I know that a lot of people automatically view some of his writing as problematic because he’s a guy writing about misogyny-related issues. I’d be lying if I said there wasn’t some sexism in ASOIAF at times, but for the most part I think he does a very good job with his female characters. He never portrays sexual assault as anything less than an act of utmost evil, and the women who have been raped all react as you would expect their characters to react - in Cersei’s case, she bottles up this massive fury that culminates in her arranging Robert’s murder (i.e. not just getting over it like it was nothing). 

Unfortunately, the show’s MRA-like take on rape as No Big Deal that women Just Get Over isn’t new. Sansa’s almost-raped twice but doesn’t seem to care. Daisy disappears after Joff’s sexualized assault by proxy. Sigh.

I completely agree. There certainly is a lot of rape in the books, but it’s rarely brushed aside like it’s nothing. Even minor characters who are raped have very significant reactions to it, like the young woman Arya encounters at Harrenhal who is raped repeatedly by the Mountain’s men and ends up trying to kill one of them for it (only to be killed herself, of course, because this is Westeros, the land of unhappiness). 

GOT, on the other hand, just seems to throw rape in for shock value. Sansa at the riot, Daisy and Ros, etc. It completely devalues it and acts as confirmation for the people who think that rape isn’t a life-altering event. 

Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

- George R R Martin on that scene

"She is as hungry for him as he is for her." 

So I’m not saying that all the people going on about how Jaime was an unreliable narrator and how Cersei’s “weak” rejection wasn’t actually “weak” and how she only gave consent to get it over with faster… 

… because the author is saying it for me. 

image

(Though he should have stopped when she first said “no.” That wasn’t cool. But yeah, Cersei’s consent was real is my main takeaway from this.) 

Anonymous asked: This isn't going to drive you away again, I hope : (

Don’t worry. It’s taken a while, but I’ve reached a point where I don’t obsess over every criticism or passive-aggressive post. It’s still frustrating, but it doesn’t stress me out as much as it used to. 

Not going to lie, though, when I woke up this morning and saw that the post had reached over 2000 notes, I kind of regretted making it. But I’m still going to do my best to reply to everyone who wanted a discussion. 

sirius-black-is-my-homeboy:

The fact that there are so many people claiming the book scene was 100% consensual OR completely a-okay is more troubling to me than the tv scene

I agree. It’s frustrating because Cersei’s eventual consent doesn’t magically wipe out what happened previously. The beginning of the scene played out in the same way it did on GOT. 

The show removing her consent, though, changes or obliterates all the character-related details of that scene (her agency, her reaction, etc). I just don’t get the point of doing that. 

(Source: lowgarden)

Anonymous asked: Just a quick ask to say that I agree with you, and that people who are calling you a 'rape apologist' are either not reading your responses AT ALL, or not taking the time to try to understand them. Your point was what was going on in Cersei's mind, and how her later 'yes' to what was happening plays out in terms of her as a character. Not that it didn't start off as rape, or it was the right thing for Jamie to do or anything of the sort.

Thank you! I’m confused by the “YOU’RE SAYING RAPE IS OKAY” responses - there haven’t been many, but it’s weird that I’ve gotten any at all considering that’s not at all what I’ve said anywhere on this blog.

I think that the book scene is open for debate, and that people should absolutely discuss it and analyze it. My issue is the way the show turned it around and make it purely nonconsensual, because that changes everything about the Jaime / Cersei relationship and obliterates both of their prior characterizations. Cersei’s consent didn’t make that scene okay, but it definitely changed its dynamic in the minds of the characters. 

frecklestherobot:

frecklestherobot:

frecklestherobot:

lowgarden:

frecklestherobot:

"He’s supposed to be the archetypal knight in shining armor"

HE LITERALLY PUSHES A CHILD OUT OF A WINDOW SO THAT NO ONE FINDS OUT HE AND HIS SISTER ARE FUCKING WHAT THE HELL SHOW ARE YOU WATCHING.

Also if…

That it doesn’t matter whether or not Jaime thinks what he did was wrong because it is and that you can’t conclusively know what she was thinking or how a woman who lives in a world where a woman can’t be raped by her husband/lover would respond to this. For all we know, her encouragement was a self defense mechanism to get it over with faster.

You are right in that she doesn’t think she was raped. But then you have to concede that if next week she does not act in a way that would give us the impression she thinks she was raped, then the scene from the show is not different in terms of how problematic it was from the books.

You still haven’t quoted the part where I said it was ok. 

Yes, it does matter whether or not Jaime thinks it’s wrong, for all those character reasons I’ve mentioned. If Jaime thinks, “Yeah, I’m a rapist,” then that completely goes against his entire character. Cersei giving consent in the books allows him to think, “I’m okay, we’re in love, it’s romantic.” 

Cersei never thinks about this encounter again in the books, suggesting that it didn’t have an impact on her in the way that it would have if she felt she were raped (just look at how much she dwells on her marriage to Robert). For that reason, I don’t think her giving consent was just a way of getting it over with faster. She saw it as just another sex session with Jaime, nothing remarkably out of the ordinary. 

In the show, she never gave consent, which means that even she can’t convince herself that she wasn’t raped. In no way can this scene be interpreted as consensual sex between lovers. If next week Cersei acts as though it never happened, that would be massively out of character for her. 

I’m not complaining that the scene started out as nonconsensual, because that’s true to the books. I’m complaining that Cersei’s consent was taken away, because that changes the entire dynamic of the scene. 

frecklestherobot:

frecklestherobot:

lowgarden:

frecklestherobot:

"He’s supposed to be the archetypal knight in shining armor"

HE LITERALLY PUSHES A CHILD OUT OF A WINDOW SO THAT NO ONE FINDS OUT HE AND HIS SISTER ARE FUCKING WHAT THE HELL SHOW ARE YOU WATCHING.

Also if you read that scene in the…

She starts off the scene begging him to stop and ends the scene trying to get him to finish faster. How is this 100% consensual or ok?

This scene is from Jaime’s POV not Cersei’s. You can’t actually conclusively say what she was thinking. But you can say that Jaime does not care about the fact that she is trying to refuse him. And I don’t understand how you can excuse that.

Again, quote where I said that it was ok. I’m sorry for the bold and italics, but this is the second time you’ve said that, and it’s the second time I’ve asked for you to show me where I said that. You’re projecting, or putting words in my mouth, or responding to the wrong posts. 

And I don’t understand how you can excuse that.

You’re going to have to quote where I excused it, too. Because I didn’t. Per my last reblog: “I said that Cersei’s consent was an important part of the scene because it meant that, in her mind, she wasn’t raped, which would keep her (lack of a) reaction consistent with her character.” 

I’m not arguing over whether Jaime was in the right or if the scene was 100% consensual. I’m arguing that because Cersei gave consent in the end, neither she nor Jaime thought of it as rape, which means that Jaime doesn’t see himself as a rapist and Cersei doesn’t see herself as being raped. This distinction means that their later interactions - i.e. her not killing him - are in character. On GOT, any interactions they have after this will be out of character because both Jaime and Cersei know that Jaime raped Cersei.

I’m sorry if I sound frustrated right now. I just don’t understand where your arguments are coming from. 

To understand the psychology behind it, and why he goes as far as he does, was really difficult. To me it became, When does physical desire take over? It’s one of those things where he’s been holding it back for so long, and then out of anger he grabs her, and instinct takes over, and he lets loose. He says, I don’t care. He wants to not care. He has to connect to her, and he knows this is the most fucked up way for it to happen, but in that moment, he knows it’s all he can do. It’s an act of powerlessness.

frecklestherobot:

lowgarden:

frecklestherobot:

"He’s supposed to be the archetypal knight in shining armor"

HE LITERALLY PUSHES A CHILD OUT OF A WINDOW SO THAT NO ONE FINDS OUT HE AND HIS SISTER ARE FUCKING WHAT THE HELL SHOW ARE YOU WATCHING.

Also if you read that scene in the books and are claiming it was 100% consensual either you are lying for tumblr fame or you are a rape apologist and in either case please go away.

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I am astounded that this is an actual response. Cersei begs him to stop repeatedly and tries to physically fight him off and that’s ok because she likes it later? I want you to go away not because I can’t argue but because I don’t want to associate with rape apologists.

Also lol at tone policing.

I - what? Sorry? Please quote where I said that it’s “ok because she likes it later.” Rereading my post, it looks like I said that Cersei’s consent was an important part of the scene because it meant that, in her mind, she wasn’t raped, which would keep her (lack of a) reaction consistent with her character. 

I want you to go away not because I can’t argue but because I don’t want to associate with rape apologists.

Are you sure about that? Because it seems as though you’re putting words in my mouth as a defense mechanism after realizing that your initial argument was immature, childish, and generally indefensible.